Transcript -- 文字實(shí)錄

1978年國(guó)務(wù)院規(guī)定中國(guó)男職工法定退休年齡為60歲，女職工為50歲，女干部為55歲。6月5日，人力資源和社會(huì)保障部提出未來(lái)會(huì)逐步將退休年齡推遲5年。這個(gè)消息引起了廣泛的討論。 事實(shí)上，這并不是人社部第一次提出這個(gè)方案。但是延遲中國(guó)人的退休年齡究竟好不好呢？政府推動(dòng)這個(gè)方案有什么更深層的社會(huì)原因呢？現(xiàn)行的養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)制度又存在著哪些問(wèn)題？在討論這些問(wèn)題之前, 讓我們先聽(tīng)聽(tīng)大家是怎么說(shuō)的。

In 1978, the State Council regulated that Chinese male employees should retire at the age of 60, female employees at 50 and female officials at 55. On June 5, the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security said it is going to gradually push back the retirement age by 5 years. The announcement drew wide discussion. In fact, this wasn't the first time the ministry proposed the move. But is it a good idea for Chinese workers to retire at a later age? In what social context is the government's push rooted? And what are some of the more fundamental problems existing in China's current pension system? Before we get into these questions, let's hear what people have to say first.

記者：請(qǐng)問(wèn)您幾歲時(shí)退休的？

Reporter: At what age did you retire?

受訪者：五十二歲。

Respondent: Fifty-two.

受訪者：我是五十五歲。

Respondent: I was 55 years old.

受訪者：我現(xiàn)在算是內(nèi)退了。內(nèi)部退養(yǎng)就是還沒(méi)有到法定的退休年齡,但是又有單位或者個(gè)人的各種（原因),你沒(méi)法繼續(xù)在工作崗位了。

Respondent: I retired early. That means I didn't reach the official retirement age but was no longer able to work for personal reasons.

記者：您理想的退休年齡是幾歲？

Reporter: What is your ideal age for retirement?

受訪者：應(yīng)該是六十多歲。

Respondent: Sixty-something.

受訪者：六十吧。

Respondent: Sixty.

受訪者：五十多就行。

Respondent: Fifty-something would be good.

受訪者：想越早越好，但是覺(jué)得目前五十五歲還是可以接受的。

Respondent: The earlier the better. But I think the age of 55 that's currently required is acceptable.

受訪者：六十到六十五吧。

Respondent: Sixty to 65.

記者：如果將現(xiàn)在的法定退休年齡推遲五年,您認(rèn)為對(duì)社會(huì)會(huì)有什么影響？

Reporter：If we delay the retirement age by five years, what impact do you think it will have on society?

受訪者：我認(rèn)為各有利弊。有利的一面就是一些工程技術(shù)人員、有特長(zhǎng)的中老年人會(huì)為社會(huì)發(fā)揮余熱, 做出一定的貢獻(xiàn)，弊的方面就是影響年輕人的就業(yè)。

Respondent: I think there are pros and cons. The positive side is that middle-aged and elderly professionals can continue to make contributions to society. The negative side is that young people may have difficulty finding jobs.

受訪者：我認(rèn)為這個(gè)可以。現(xiàn)在很多人六十歲（的人）都身強(qiáng)力壯的。

Respondent: I think that would be good. Many 60-year-olds are still physically strong.

受訪者：如果說(shuō)（像）公務(wù)員那種在位比較舒適一點(diǎn)，比較有權(quán)勢(shì)一點(diǎn)的，我想是越晚退越好。

Respondent: For people like civil servants, who have comfortable jobs or are in power, it is the later the better.

受訪者：進(jìn)入老齡社會(huì)，老年人越來(lái)越多。如果再延長(zhǎng)五年的話，得到的機(jī)會(huì)平臺(tái)會(huì)越來(lái)越少的。

Respondent: In an aging society, the number of elderly people is growing. If we push back retirement by another five years, young people will have fewer and fewer opportunities.

受訪者：關(guān)于醫(yī)療這一塊,還有孩子的教育這一塊有一些更好的保障。我覺(jué)得五十五歲再推遲五年,應(yīng)該還是有一定精力可以再工作的。但是如果社會(huì)保障這塊做得不是特別好，那么到時(shí)候，五十五歲推遲五年，可能這期間會(huì)比較累。就看這個(gè)社會(huì)怎么做到（使）我們壓力減小。

Respondent: If our healthcare and children's education can be better guaranteed, I think I will still be able to work for five more years. But if the social security is inadequate, I will find it quite hard to work another five years. It depends on how the society can reduce the pressure that's on us.

養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)制度的基本概念是公民通過(guò)繳納養(yǎng)老金稅來(lái)贍養(yǎng)當(dāng)前的退休老人。在這個(gè)人退休后,他（她）又由年輕一代的納稅人來(lái)贍養(yǎng)。根據(jù)中國(guó)2010年通過(guò)的《社會(huì)保險(xiǎn)法》，中國(guó)基本的養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)制度將人群分為四類：城鎮(zhèn)職工，公務(wù)員和事業(yè)單位職工，農(nóng)村居民，以及城鎮(zhèn)居民。城鎮(zhèn)居民又包括個(gè)體、非全日制從業(yè)人員、無(wú)就業(yè)人員。

The basic idea for a pension system is citizens pay social security taxes to fund current pensioners. When a person retires, he or she will be funded by the younger generation of tax payers. According to China's 2010 Social Security Law, China's basic pension system divides people into four categories: urban employees, State employees, rural residents, and urban residents, which includes self-employed, part-time employed and unemployed residents.

中國(guó)基本養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)制度由社會(huì)統(tǒng)籌和個(gè)人帳戶組成。每個(gè)月，城鎮(zhèn)職工繳付個(gè)人工資的8％的社會(huì)保險(xiǎn)稅到個(gè)人帳戶里。用人單位繳付員工工資的20％到社會(huì)統(tǒng)籌帳戶里由各當(dāng)?shù)卣芾?。事?shí)上，所有的個(gè)人帳戶都是虛擬的，因?yàn)槁毠ぶ钡酵诵莺蟛趴梢灶I(lǐng)到養(yǎng)老金，同時(shí)還需要繳費(fèi)15年以上。

China's basic pension system consists of social pooling and each citizen's individual account. Each month, urban employees pay 8 percent of their wages as social security taxes to their individual accounts. Employers pay an amount equal to 20 percent of each employee's wages to the social pool, which is managed by local governments. Individual accounts are in fact, virtual, because employees will not be able to cash out their pension until they retire, and have contributed to their individual accounts for at least 15 years.

一個(gè)職工的養(yǎng)老金來(lái)自兩方面：一是社會(huì)統(tǒng)籌撥給他（她）的錢，二是個(gè)人帳戶里的錢。但是，國(guó)家公務(wù)員和事業(yè)單位職工不需要每月從工資中繳納社會(huì)保險(xiǎn)稅，國(guó)家財(cái)政為他們繳付，他們退休后也直接從國(guó)家領(lǐng)取退休金。農(nóng)村和城鎮(zhèn)居民參加基本養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)，也需要繳納15年以上的社會(huì)保險(xiǎn)稅到自己的個(gè)人賬戶中。他們的養(yǎng)老金將來(lái)自于個(gè)人帳戶里的錢和國(guó)家補(bǔ)貼的基礎(chǔ)養(yǎng)老金。除了強(qiáng)制性的基本養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)制度，中國(guó)還有企業(yè)年金和商業(yè)養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)，個(gè)人和單位可以自行選擇。

Their pension will come from two sources: first, the money allotted to them from the big, social pool. and, second, the money from their individual accounts. State employees, however, do not pay monthly social security taxes from their work wages by themselves. The State revenue pays for them. They receive pension directly from the State after they retire. Rural residents and urban residents can participate in the basic pension system by contributing social security taxes to their individual accounts for at least 15 years .Their pension will come from their individual accounts as well as a base pension provided by the State. In addition to the basic pension system, which is compulsory, there are also enterprise annuity and commercial pension insurance. They are optional for companies and individuals to choose.

根據(jù)2011年由中國(guó)社會(huì)科學(xué)院出版的《中國(guó)養(yǎng)老金發(fā)展報(bào)告》，在歐洲，幾乎所有發(fā)達(dá)國(guó)家的職工均在61歲或以上退休。在英國(guó)、德國(guó)、西班牙和瑞典，職工在65歲退休，在冰島和挪威，67歲退休。通常發(fā)達(dá)國(guó)家的居民繳費(fèi)至個(gè)人帳戶約41年，相比之下，中國(guó)只要求15年。

According to the 2011 China Pension Report published by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, in almost all developed countries in Europe, employees retire at the age of 61 or above. In the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain and Sweden, employees retire at 65, and in Iceland and Norway 67. Normally, residents of developed countries contribute to their individual pension accounts for 41 years, whereas China requires only 15 years.

那么對(duì)于退休年齡的討論與中國(guó)的養(yǎng)老保險(xiǎn)制度有關(guān)嗎？我們?cè)谘莶ナ译娫挷稍L了鄭秉文，他是《2011中國(guó)養(yǎng)老金發(fā)展報(bào)告》的主編。

Does the discussion over retirement age have anything to do with the structure of China's pension system? We called Zheng Bingwen from our studio. He is the lead author of the 2011 China Pension Report.

馮欣：鄭教授，我在網(wǎng)上看到現(xiàn)在大部分網(wǎng)友似乎都反對(duì)政府延遲退休年齡，而大部分專家似乎都支持這種做法，對(duì)于這種分歧，您的觀點(diǎn)是什么？

Feng Xin: Professor Zheng, I found online that most netizens seem to object to the idea of delaying retirement, whereas most experts seem to support the idea. What do you think of that disagreement?

鄭秉文：我覺(jué)得這種分歧是自然的。在國(guó)外，提高退休年齡也不是一帆風(fēng)順的。我們可以從提高退休年齡產(chǎn)生的分歧看出一個(gè)規(guī)律，這個(gè)規(guī)律是什么呢？一個(gè)國(guó)家，如果它的退休制度、社會(huì)保障制度是碎片化的，那么它提高退休年齡遇到的阻力就特別大。如果它不是一個(gè)碎片化的制度，那它就很容易提高退休年齡。

Zheng Bingwen: I think it's natural. It's not easy to change the retirement age in other countries either. We can find a pattern in the disagreement on raising the retirement age. What's the pattern? If a country's retirement system and social welfare are fragmented, trying to raise the retirement age becomes a much more difficult process. If its systems are not fragmented, it's easy to do.

馮欣：什么叫做“碎片化”的制度？

Feng Xin: What do you mean by "fragmented systems"?

鄭秉文：你比如說(shuō)西歐一些國(guó)家，他們的碎片化程度非常高。一個(gè)群體一個(gè)制度，有的國(guó)家是四個(gè)制度，五個(gè)制度，每個(gè)制度下面還有小的制度，形成碎片化，法國(guó)是最典型的。你比如說(shuō)美國(guó)，還有北歐，戰(zhàn)后他們提高退休年齡就比較順暢，尤其美國(guó)，因?yàn)樗鼈兪且粋€(gè)制度。不同群體都是在一個(gè)制度里，所以不同群體感到它是公平的，沒(méi)有攀比的現(xiàn)象。但是在是實(shí)行碎片化制度的國(guó)家就不是這樣了。在法國(guó)，那么多的碎片化制度。你要是提高某一個(gè)群體的退休年齡，它會(huì)攀比另一個(gè)群體的，每一個(gè)群體都感到自己劃不來(lái)。那么在中國(guó)，遇到提高退休年齡這么大的反對(duì)聲音，而且這么多年來(lái)是一次比一次激烈，一次比一次討論的范圍更大，我個(gè)人覺(jué)得跟我們退休制度雙軌制、多軌制、碎片化是有很大關(guān)系的。我覺(jué)得從這個(gè)角度上來(lái)看，從社會(huì)公正角度來(lái)看，反對(duì)的聲音，尤其是理性的一面，說(shuō)明我們這個(gè)制度不公。制度碎片化的現(xiàn)象存在著，它嚴(yán)重地制約了我們進(jìn)一步對(duì)社保制度進(jìn)行改革的可能性。

Zheng Bingwen: For example, many Western European countries have highly fragmented systems. One social group has one system. Some countries have four or five systems. Under each system, there are sub-levels. They are very fragmented. France is a typical example. However, the United States and Northern Europe easily raised their retirement ages after the war, especially the United States. Different groups live within the same system, and therefore they feel equal. There is no comparison. However, countries with fragmented systems are different. In France, there are so many fragmented policies. If you want to raise the retirement age of one group, people will compare it to that of another group. Every group feels that it loses in certain ways. In China, we encounter a lot of opposing voices on rising retirement age. The voices have been getting more and more intense. The discussion has become wider and wider. I personally think it's largely related to our double- or multi-track systems as well as fragmented policies. Therefore, I think from a social-fairness point of view, the opposing voices, especially the rational ones, indicate the inequality in our system. The fragmented policies seriously hinder the possibility to further reform our pension system.

馮欣：好的，非常感謝您。

Feng Xin: Thank you very much.

除了社會(huì)公平以外，還有更多的問(wèn)題需要我們考慮，我們采訪了研究中國(guó)社保的專家楊燕綏。

Apart from social fairness, there are more issues to be considered. We talked to Yang Yansui, a leading expert in China's pension system.

馮欣：楊教授，現(xiàn)在大家對(duì)“是否延遲退休年齡” 這個(gè)問(wèn)題討論比較熱烈, 您覺(jué)得主要爭(zhēng)議在哪呢？

Feng Xin: Professor Yang, there's wide discussion on whether we should push back the retirement age. What do you think to be the major controversies?

楊燕綏：關(guān)于退休年齡,它是由一個(gè)國(guó)家勞動(dòng)人口和老年人口的贍養(yǎng)比來(lái)決定的, 所以當(dāng)五個(gè)勞動(dòng)人口養(yǎng)一個(gè)老人——我們假設(shè)這五個(gè)勞動(dòng)人口都能就業(yè)，他們都有納稅能力，每掙100塊錢,10塊錢去交養(yǎng)老金稅了,五個(gè)人去養(yǎng)一個(gè)老人,老人得到了50塊錢,你看這幾個(gè)指標(biāo)是不是大家還相對(duì)能接受？但是如果四個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)是不是就不可以接受了？

Yang Yansui: Retirement age is determined by the dependency ratio between the number of elderly people and the workforce. Let's say five workers support one old person. We assume they are all employed and able to pay taxes. For every 100 yuan each worker makes,10 yuan is taken out as pension tax. Five workers contribute 50 yuan to one elderly person. People can normally afford that tax. But what if four workers now have to support one elderly person?

馮欣：負(fù)擔(dān)就更重了。

Feng Xin: The burden gets heavier.

楊燕綏：如果四個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè),那我們對(duì)年輕人征多少養(yǎng)老金稅？征15％嗎？那么他的可支配收入剩85（元）了。這時(shí)候他又要養(yǎng)孩子，還要買房子，他們甚至還要繼續(xù)教育，自學(xué)等等，實(shí)際上這時(shí)候年輕一代接受不了了。那我們降低養(yǎng)老金呢？再降低剩40（元）了，老年人還能吃飽飯嗎？也不能接受了。

If four support one, how much do we have to tax young people? Let's say 15%. Then each worker's dispensable income is 85 yuan. If the worker has to raise a child, buy a house, or even pursue further education, he or she would not be able to afford the tax. What if we decrease the pension? Let's make it 40 yuan. Can the elderly person still be fed? No.

馮欣：這里我插一段問(wèn)一下,您剛才說(shuō)到五個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)的時(shí)候，這個(gè)國(guó)家也許能夠?qū)Ω哆^(guò)去，四個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)的時(shí)候也許就對(duì)付不過(guò)去了。我們現(xiàn)在的情況是什么樣子的？

Feng Xin: Sorry to interrupt,you just mentioned that when five support one, the country might be able to cope with it. But when it comes to four to one, it might just not be able to. What's our situation now?

楊燕綏：邊際，邊際贍養(yǎng)率，那就是不可能低于它了。中國(guó)的情況是這樣的，2010年中國(guó)還是九個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)。到2020年的時(shí)候，咱們就是五個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)。

Yang Yansui: It's called "marginal aged-dependency ratio", meaning we can't go lower. In 2010, nine workers supported one elderly person in China. But by 2020,five have to support one.

馮欣：這么快？

Feng Xin: That fast?

楊燕綏：因?yàn)槟阒?，我們過(guò)去30年計(jì)劃生育少生將近5億人口,但是老年人長(zhǎng)壽了，所以中國(guó)在未來(lái)10年這個(gè)爆發(fā)了。但是我要強(qiáng)調(diào)的（是），剛才說(shuō)的是統(tǒng)計(jì)口徑。統(tǒng)計(jì)口徑就是15歲到64歲,這個(gè)期間我們都認(rèn)為他充分工作了，而且他收入可以繳納所得稅、社保稅，但是是這樣嗎？你想，15歲到64歲的人都是在充分就業(yè)嗎？他們都收入很好嗎？

Yang Yansui: Yes. You know, because of the family planning policy over the past 30 years, we had nearly 500 million fewer people, but people live longer than before. The problem will break out in the next decade. But I want to emphasize that I was talking about statistics. We assumed people between 15 and 64 are all employed and able to pay income tax and social security taxes. But is that really the case? Can everyone from 15 to 64 be fully employed? Do they all have good income?

馮欣：15歲很多人還在上學(xué)。

Feng Xin: Many 15-year-olds are still in school.

楊燕綏：你說(shuō)對(duì)了。所以我們現(xiàn)在正在研究一個(gè)問(wèn)題叫“實(shí)際贍養(yǎng)比”。這個(gè)實(shí)際贍養(yǎng)比真的很嚴(yán)重，當(dāng)然我們現(xiàn)在還沒(méi)有最準(zhǔn)確的東西，不好公布，但是大家可以想像，絕對(duì)不是九個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)。在有的地方已經(jīng)是三個(gè)勞動(dòng)人口去養(yǎng)一個(gè)老人，老齡化嚴(yán)重的地方三個(gè)甚至兩個(gè)。2020年統(tǒng)計(jì)口徑上五個(gè)養(yǎng)一個(gè)。如果中國(guó)不能實(shí)現(xiàn)充分就業(yè)的問(wèn)題，如果我們不能使低收入的人提高收入，他們不僅養(yǎng)自己也能養(yǎng)老人的問(wèn)題，如果我們不糾正往后推延退休年齡的問(wèn)題，到2020年實(shí)現(xiàn)全面小康社會(huì)的時(shí)候，實(shí)際上我們是一個(gè)老年贍養(yǎng)比非常嚴(yán)重的（國(guó)家），它會(huì)帶來(lái)一系列的社會(huì)問(wèn)題，直接威脅我們2020年實(shí)現(xiàn)全面小康社會(huì)的目標(biāo)。

Yang Yansui: You are right. So, we are now studying what's called the "actual dependency ratio". The problem is really serious. Although we can't release our findings yet, we can assume it's definitely not nine to one. In some places, it's already three to one, or even two to one. Statistically, it will be five to one in 2020. If China doesn't take itself to full employment, increase low-income people's earnings so that they can not only feed themselves but also elderly people, or push pack the retirement age. By 2020, we will become a seriously aged country. It will lead to a series of social problems and directly threaten our goal of having a prosperous society in 2020.

馮欣：表面上，大家是在討論我們是否應(yīng)該延遲退休年齡，但是這個(gè)爭(zhēng)議本身的產(chǎn)生是由什么原因?qū)е碌哪兀繐Q句話說(shuō)，這個(gè)爭(zhēng)議折射出什么更深層的問(wèn)題呢？

Feng Xin: On the surface, people are discussing whether we should delay our retirement age, but what has caused this controversy? In other words, what deeper problems does the controversy imply?

楊燕綏：我也看了看網(wǎng)上大家的說(shuō)法，我覺(jué)得主要還是兩個(gè)問(wèn)題。第一個(gè)問(wèn)題，大家說(shuō)，推遲退休年齡是不是我們就更不好就業(yè)了？很多人把老年人退出勞動(dòng)力市場(chǎng)和年輕人進(jìn)入勞動(dòng)力市場(chǎng)看成是一個(gè)問(wèn)題，理解為好像我們的市場(chǎng)上這些椅子擺在這兒是固定的。所以老年人坐在這兒，年輕人就沒(méi)地方坐。老年人一退出去，年輕人馬上就有地方坐了。

Yang Yansui: I checked the web, and I think there are two main issues. First, people wonder if delaying the retirement age means it'll be harder for young people to be employed. Many see elderly people leaving the job market and young people entering the market as one question, as if there were a certain number of chairs in the job market. If a seat is taken, there would be one less available for a young person. When elderly people leave, young people would have seats immediately.

馮欣：一個(gè)蘿卜一個(gè)坑。

Feng Xin: Like each person has his own place?

楊燕綏：一個(gè)蘿卜一個(gè)坑，老百姓容易這樣理解。實(shí)際上勞動(dòng)力市場(chǎng)不是這樣表現(xiàn)的。勞動(dòng)力市場(chǎng)到底有多少椅子讓人們來(lái)坐，有多少崗位，取決于產(chǎn)業(yè)結(jié)構(gòu)調(diào)整。我們現(xiàn)在的產(chǎn)業(yè)結(jié)構(gòu)，第一產(chǎn)業(yè)（比如）開(kāi)采業(yè)，第二產(chǎn)業(yè)，比如加工業(yè)，第三產(chǎn)業(yè)，（比如）服務(wù)業(yè)，這三個(gè)產(chǎn)業(yè)之間的關(guān)系。如果第一產(chǎn)業(yè)、第二產(chǎn)業(yè)還是占著大比例的，這些產(chǎn)業(yè)實(shí)際上計(jì)算機(jī)的替代能力很強(qiáng)的。如果我們不調(diào)整產(chǎn)業(yè)結(jié)構(gòu)，別說(shuō)老人，就是40歲都退出去，年輕人、大學(xué)生一畢業(yè)都不一定有工作的。工作崗位現(xiàn)在最主要是靠第三產(chǎn)業(yè)創(chuàng)造。只要我們服務(wù)業(yè)能上去，年輕人的就業(yè)崗位就有了。它跟老年人是不是離開(kāi)不是一個(gè)絕對(duì)的指標(biāo)。我覺(jué)得這是第一點(diǎn)誤解。

Yang Yansui: Yes. The public usually sees it this way, but in fact, the job market doesn't work like that. How many seats there are available in the job market depends on the structure of industries. Our current industries include primary industry, like mining, secondary industry, like manufacturing, and tertiary industry, like the service industry. They are interrelated. If the first and second industries still take up a big proportion – they can indeed easily be replaced by technology – and if we don't restructure the industries, not only elderly people but also young graduates still won't find jobs, even if we make all 40-year-olds retire. Jobs are mainly created by the tertiary industry. As long as we improve the service industry, young people will have jobs. This is not determined by the parameter of retirement. I think this is a misunderstanding.

第二個(gè)大家不同意的就是，大家前不久都知道，我們的個(gè)人帳戶空賬問(wèn)題。養(yǎng)老金支付將來(lái)隨著老齡化，政府負(fù)擔(dān)越來(lái)越（重）。還有公共部門事業(yè)單位要不要改革，因?yàn)槲覀兊墓膊块T、事業(yè)單位越來(lái)越大，他們自己不繳費(fèi)，都靠財(cái)政出錢。所以以后納稅的人少了，我們從明年開(kāi)始勞動(dòng)人口下降了，所以這時(shí)候是不是財(cái)政負(fù)擔(dān)太重了？大家想到這些問(wèn)題。是不是養(yǎng)老金欠發(fā)了？還有個(gè)人帳戶空帳是不是不想解決，想挪用年輕人的個(gè)人帳戶？政府不想解決，想通過(guò)推遲退休年齡來(lái)抹殺這個(gè)問(wèn)題？我看大家擔(dān)心這個(gè)比較多。

Secondly, as many may have known, there are problems with our individual accounts becoming empty. As the society is aging, the government's burden is getting heavier. The reform of public sectors is an issue, because they are growing bigger and bigger but don't pay taxes. They rely on the State revenue. There are fewer taxpayers, and our workforce will also decrease next year. Is the government's financial burden getting too heavy? People are thinking these questions. Does the government owe people their pension? Does it want to avoid solving the problem of empty individual accounts? Does the government attempt to get away with diverting young people's money to (supporting current pensioners) by delaying people's retirement age? I see this as a major concern.

馮欣：那您怎么看呢？

Feng Xin: What do you think?

楊燕綏：剛才我說(shuō)到，面對(duì)這個(gè)人口贍養(yǎng)比的問(wèn)題，實(shí)際上大家得做兩個(gè)準(zhǔn)備。退休年齡逐漸向后推，彈性一點(diǎn)，讓有條件（的人）先做起來(lái)，引領(lǐng)中國(guó)逐漸提高退休年齡。我相信在近年內(nèi)不會(huì)威脅到這些年老的，找不到工作的人，不會(huì)的。另一個(gè)就是調(diào)整養(yǎng)老金的結(jié)構(gòu)。中國(guó)確實(shí)需要調(diào)整養(yǎng)老金的結(jié)構(gòu)。中國(guó)實(shí)際上在前些年做的社會(huì)統(tǒng)籌個(gè)人帳戶相結(jié)合養(yǎng)老金選擇是非常好的。但是因?yàn)?8年推這個(gè)制度的時(shí)候國(guó)有企業(yè)減員增效下來(lái)幾千萬(wàn)職工，他們平均年齡才47歲，提前退休了，那么他們的養(yǎng)老金誰(shuí)來(lái)發(fā)放呢？所以這樣確實(shí)就挪用了年輕人（的錢）。大家每人都按工資的8％存養(yǎng)老金擱個(gè)人帳戶里，這個(gè)錢被挪用了去給老人發(fā)，就是那些提前退休的。當(dāng)時(shí)叫減員增效、下崗進(jìn)再就業(yè)中心，然后出中心。很多人都提前退休了，那這些人的養(yǎng)老金是沒(méi)有預(yù)算的。所以他們是在用年輕人個(gè)人帳戶的錢，確實(shí)是挪用了。這個(gè)問(wèn)題是一定要解決的，不會(huì)因?yàn)橥七t退休年齡不解決這個(gè)問(wèn)題。

Yang Yansui: As I just said it, to solve the problem of the dependency ratio, people need to be prepared with two things. First, pushing back the retirement age - we need to make it flexible. Let those who are prepared start retiring first, leading others to follow. I believe at least in the next few years this will not threaten the elderly, unemployed people. It won't. The other thing to do is restructure the pension system. China absolutely needs to do that. In fact, what China has implemented – the combination of the social pool and individual accounts – is very good. But when policy was implemented in 1998, tens of millions of State employees were laid off to boost efficiency. Their average age was only 47, but they had to retire. Who was to provide their pension? So the government diverted young people's money. When people pay 8% of their wages go to their individual accounts, the money was diverted to supporting the elderly people or those who retire early. They were either called "downsized" or "re-employed" staff, and many of them retired early. These people were not included in the State budget, so the government used young people's money. The money was indeed diverted. This problem has to be solved. It cannot be ignored, because we are going to delay the retirement age.

馮欣：是否應(yīng)該延遲退休年齡，您個(gè)人的觀點(diǎn)是什么？您是支持還是反對(duì)？

Feng Xin: Should we delay the retirement age, what's your personal opinion? Do you support it or object to it?

楊燕綏：我是支持的。中國(guó)的退休年齡，現(xiàn)在看中國(guó)執(zhí)行的是一種剛性的，法定的，一刀切的退休年齡。由法律規(guī)定一個(gè)年齡，到這天都退休，沒(méi)有選擇的余地，而且退休的年齡和領(lǐng)取養(yǎng)老金的年齡是一致的。實(shí)際上這是兩回事情。退休是說(shuō)我退出勞動(dòng)力市場(chǎng)，我不去找工作了。領(lǐng)取養(yǎng)老金是我必須開(kāi)始從國(guó)家領(lǐng)取養(yǎng)老金了。比較明智的社會(huì)政策就是給兩到三個(gè)選擇，每個(gè)人選擇以后，認(rèn)為這個(gè)政策是我自己決定的，而不是政府你強(qiáng)制我去做的。這樣他就覺(jué)得跟自己很合適，執(zhí)行起來(lái)他也愿意。

Yang Yansui: I support it. In terms of China's retirement age, the country is carrying out a rigid, compulsory and clear-cut policy. The law specifies an age,and everyone has to retire on that day. There are no options. Also, the retirement age is the same as the age to receive pension. Retirement means I leave the job market and no longer go out to work. But receiving pension means I have to start receiving money from the State. A wise public policy is to give people two to three choices. If people think they make their own decisions, rather than being forced by the government, they would be happy to carry out their choices. they would be happy to carry out their choices. In fact, these are two completely different things.

但是這里必須強(qiáng)調(diào)一點(diǎn)，很多人關(guān)心的，政府的很多公務(wù)員、很多當(dāng)官的不想退，這下可能讓他們得意了。錯(cuò)了，關(guān)于靈活領(lǐng)取養(yǎng)老金的時(shí)間，還有靈活選擇退休時(shí)間，對(duì)于公務(wù)員來(lái)講是不可能的。公務(wù)員什么時(shí)候退休，什么時(shí)候領(lǐng)取養(yǎng)老金，一律按公務(wù)員法，絕對(duì)個(gè)人是沒(méi)有選擇余地的。各個(gè)機(jī)關(guān)部門也沒(méi)有決定余地。按國(guó)家公務(wù)員法，這是不予選擇的?，F(xiàn)在選擇還主要是事業(yè)單位和企業(yè)。但是一旦要做，這個(gè)不是一句話。國(guó)家一定要拿出法律規(guī)定，怎么來(lái)確定退休年齡？什么叫領(lǐng)取養(yǎng)老金的起點(diǎn)時(shí)間？怎樣向企業(yè)提出來(lái)，說(shuō)什么條件下我愿意推遲領(lǐng)取，企業(yè)怎么答應(yīng)，人家提了你就要答應(yīng)，這些程序怎么辦，怎么公開(kāi)，怎么統(tǒng)計(jì)，這些都得有嚴(yán)格的法律，不能把這個(gè)變成一個(gè)少數(shù)人說(shuō)了算（的事）。這是不可以的。

But I have to emphasize that many people are concerned with how State employees might further benefit from this how State employees might further benefit from this. In fact, it will be impossible for State employees to choose when they want to retire. Impossible. They have to follow civil servants law completely. Individuals will not be able to choose, nor will their departments. They have to follow the law. It will mainly be employees at public institutions and enterprises (that can choose). But once it is carried out, it's not a slogan. The government has to pass relevant laws to define retirement age and the age to receive pension. It has to specify under what conditions employees can choose retirement age and how employers should respond. What procedures to follow and make transparent, and how to record them – these things all have to be strictly specified in the law. It cannot be turned into a few people's decision. Absolutely not.

馮欣：也許對(duì)于像你我一樣的普通人來(lái)說(shuō)，我們有更多實(shí)際的問(wèn)題需要考慮，比如退休后我們能領(lǐng)到多少錢？中國(guó)有沒(méi)有足夠的錢來(lái)贍養(yǎng)它逐漸變老的人口？我們?cè)趲讱q時(shí)應(yīng)該考慮養(yǎng)老的問(wèn)題？請(qǐng)鎖定我們下期節(jié)目。

Feng Xin: Perhaps there are more questions for individuals like you and me to consider. For example, how much money can we receive after we retire? Does China have enough money to fund its aging population? At what age should we start planning our retirement? Please be sure to join us in our next episode.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國(guó)預(yù)算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國(guó)的預(yù)算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學(xué)生就業(yè)難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經(jīng)常聽(tīng)到畢業(yè)生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國(guó)有沒(méi)有足夠的養(yǎng)老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領(lǐng)多少錢？到什么年齡應(yīng)該計(jì)劃養(yǎng)老問(wèn)題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國(guó)人是否應(yīng)該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會(huì)保障部提出，未來(lái)會(huì)逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會(huì)原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國(guó)人：中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國(guó)人日益增多，是否意味著中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個(gè)概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：難點(diǎn)

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國(guó)》探討中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法進(jìn)程中長(zhǎng)期存在的阻力和分歧。